The Era of the Super-Team
So much talk lately has been focussed on the creation of super teams, and guys teaming up to win championships. There are negatives and positives to both sides of the argument. And there is now a push at the college level to see superstar recruiting classes the likes of which saw Kentucky only lose 2 games all season, and saw 5 of the class drafted (and it could be happening again ).
So what are the positives? Sacrificing to win? Playing team basketball to get the best result?
What are the negatives? Diluting competition across the league?
Is it any different to what we have seen in the past with Kobe/Shaq or Clyde/Hakeem/Barkley or the Boston Big 3?
Or the “organic” ones like Manu/Parker/Duncan or Durant/Westbrook/Harden?
Courtside Notes 
jk41 10:46 am on August 25, 2012 Permalink |
Wait, wasn’t there a lockout last season to stamp out this super team shit!? Seems like a lifetime ago and I truly hope there’s never another one. I think we both stared down the barrel of a lost season and were ready to pull the trigger ourselves! Love of the game…
On first thought, I would be the most opposed to the super team, given my own Bulls are a one star team which now look like they won’t be in true contention for a few more seasons, having lost in 2011 conference finals to the doucheiest super team Miami.
But one point that I’ve read more about lately is how Magic/Bird saved the league in the 80s. Stars drive this league. As do rivalries. And those Laker and Celtics teams were absolutely stacked with All-Stars! I think people love seeing these “super teams” go head-to-head because it inevitably means the ascension of one great over the other. People love seeing who is the greatest. Although today’s “super teams” are more blatant in their creation, the same factor drives the popularity of the league. People want to know if Lebron is going to be greater than Kobe. The fact they have all star supporting casts merely makes it all the more entertaining. Who doesn’t want to see a Lakers-Heat Finals Game 7 triple overtime game next season??
Then what about the small market teams? Indiana, Milwaukee, Memphis and co.? Well I think the “organic” model *must* be adopted by them in the face of their own economic constraints. There is no way other way for them in this era. And many of them swing and miss. But it’s not like it doesn’t work, see: Spurs (4 titles), Mavs (breaking through in 2011), OKC (making the finals last year).
The way I see it, the super team is healthy for the league in terms of maintaining the popularity of the NBA, producing enticing rivalries and matchups, and doesn’t negate the small market teams from rising if they make their management makes the right personnel decisions.
I guess my question to you is: is there a bias towards the romance of team basketball, and guys not ‘taking the easy way out’ by teaming up? Like Sir Charles said, “MJ would never have teamed up just to chase rings and make it easier”.
naturalbornanalysts 9:49 pm on August 26, 2012 Permalink |
Being a fan of a one man team is often beautifully frustrating as you know, especially in this day and age where one man alone, just cant seem to get it done. I struggled heavily as KG tried to carry us all those years in MN, and ironically it wasnt until he did join forces with the elder statesmen in Boston was he able to accomplish the one piece missing. Yet i didnt at all begrudge KG for leaving for Boston, nor did I feel like Ray Allen had turned his back on Seattle to do the same thing. It was three loyal guys who had not been able to get it done with those franchises, teaming up, sacrificing, and in appearance at least, doing it the right way.
You’re correct about those star matchups making the league what it is, both past and present. You only need to look at this years series between OKC and Miami to see all kinds of TV ratings records being broken. People want to love and want to hate. In my case I wanted LeBron to fail again. And I wanted the young, mother-kissing, Durant to shine under the biggest spotlight of all.
Its human nature to pick sides in a battle.
Im sure to most basketball purists, the “organic” way is the only way it should be done, and the idea of big time players seeking each other out to join forces and dominate seems fraudulent somehow. However, as I mentioned, it has been happening pretty much since the invention of basketball, so I do think there is a irrelevant bias towards the romantic notion of letting the chips fall where they may, and may the best “natural” team win. Ultimately, I dont think there is anything wrong with the teaming up of stars, done legally (and without sportscenter shows), as it often means sacrifice, and teamwork (Wade giving up alpha dog status and Bosh shooting less).
Do you have a problem with the Gary Paytons and the Karl Malones who move to win rings in the final year or two of their careers, when they dont contribute and are being carried, creaking knees and all over the finish line?
Lets put together a top 10 super teams list- see how many are manufactured and how many are organic… throw out some nominations?
jk41 3:57 am on August 28, 2012 Permalink
I don’t have a problem with the old guys chasing rings, especially if they’ve done their time and tried it out on their own. Plus, they don’t specifically get remembered for having a ring, which is the difference between being the guy and chasing at the end of your career, people do remember you differently. The difference between, KG, Ray, GP, Malone, is that they tried it on their own for so long and used up their PRIME trying to be the guy, whereas Lebron shirked the responsibility in his prime. Plus, he made a douchebag of himself with the “The Decision”. I really believe if he didn’t go on that whole song and dance recruiting tour, do the tv show and the ridiculous parade in Miami, they probably would’ve beaten Dallas without all the pressure they put on themselves. But that’s history!
My nominations:
84-85 Lakers: Magic, Kareem, Worthy, Byron Scott, McAdoo, Michael Cooper
(Do we call this manufactured? They made the trades which lucked them into Magic and Worthy, but didn’t necessarily “buy” them)
85-86 Celtics: Bird, McHale, Parish, Dennis Johnson, Bill Walton, Danny Ainge
(Same question as above with manufactured vs. organic)
02-03 Spurs: Duncan, Parker, Robinson, Manu, Steve Smith (pretty underrated player), Steve Kerr, Bruce Bowen, Stephen Jackson
(We’d call this organic, bottoming out while Robinson was injured and picking up Duncan)
07-08 Celtics: KG, PP, Ray, Rondo, Perkins, Tony Allen, Big Baby, Scalabrine (haha)
(Manufactured)
Who you got?
naturalbornanalysts 10:22 pm on August 29, 2012 Permalink
The 85-86 celtics we will run with organic, even though they pulled turned Joe Barry Carroll into Parish and McHale in 1980 somehow…
OK so I will go even older to start :
1964-65 Boston Celtics 62 – 18 (Organic)
Led by Bill Russell, Sam Jones, John Havlicek (first round pick), Tom Sanders and Tom Heinsohn
Thats 4 guys in the pyramid… and probably the most expensive team to collect in terms of my collection (still waiting on Russell, Jones and Heinsohn!).
1966-67 Philadelphia 76ers 68 – 13 (Manufactured)
Wilt Chamberlain, Hal Greer, Chet Walker and Billy Cunningham.
Finally ended the Boston streak… but undoubtedly manufactured… with the 76ers doing a Lakers before the Lakers did a Lakers to the 76ers (got that? good!).
Wilt Chamberlain, who was traded from the San Francisco Warriors to the Sixers for Connie Dierking, Paul Neumann, Lee Shaffer….who?!
1999-2001 Lakers
The 3 peat team… I dont know what this is… they drafted fisher and kobe…. but traded for shaq… so its kind of like Yao Ming… sure, if the two of the tallest people you know have a baby… then they will have a tall baby… but you still need to teach it to shoot. This could then lead onto the Odom and Butler trade for Oneal that lead Miami to a championship…
Just as a side note…. anything prior to 1994 is pretty much all research based…haha
jk41 5:04 am on August 30, 2012 Permalink
Ok so we have 7 teams:
84-85 Lakers (organic)
85-86 Celtics (organic)
02-03 Spurs (organic)
07-08 Celtics (manufactured)
64-65 Celtics (organic)
66-67 76ers (manufactured)
99-01 Lakers
I’m gonna throw another three in to make it a nice round 10, so I’ll say:
95-96 Bulls: Can’t leave out a 72-10 team right? or an team with MJ!! (organic)
82-83 76ers: Moses, Dr. J, Mo Cheeks, Andrew Toney (organic)
11-12 Heat: Essentially sparked this debate so we gotta have them (Manufactured)
I’ll let you take first stab at ranking these 😉
naturalbornanalysts 9:26 pm on September 2, 2012 Permalink
95-96 Bulls (organic)
64-65 Celtics (organic)
84-85 Lakers (organic)
85-86 Celtics (organic)
99-01 Lakers (Manufactured)
66-67 76ers (manufactured)
11-12 Heat: (Manufactured)
02-03 Spurs (organic)
07-08 Celtics (manufactured)
82-83 76ers: (organic)
I dont think I have any justification for this other than gut feel
jk41 3:18 am on September 3, 2012 Permalink
I think you have the Heat a bit too high right? When I look at these lists, I usually think matchup wise and try to contextualise them by the form they had in that year.
Example 1: 11-12 Heat vs. 82-83 76ers
> So I reckon the Sixers beat the Heat
Example 2: 11-12 Heat vs. 07-08 Celtics
> I’ve got to take that C’s team over the Heat
The Spurs I can live with the Heat over them, although the team chemistry and coaching and TD can always give you an argument the other way. I’m pretty happy with the rest though, and I’m probably just re-shuffling the bottom cos I’m a Heat hater!
95-96 Bulls (organic)
64-65 Celtics (organic)
84-85 Lakers (organic)
85-86 Celtics (organic)
99-01 Lakers (Manufactured)
66-67 76ers (manufactured)
82-83 76ers (organic)
07-08 Celtics (manufactured)
11-12 Heat (Manufactured)
02-03 Spurs (organic)
So it seems like the Organics win out, and I also think there’s something to say for teams that build and use chemistry vs. teams that buy. I suppose its more the feeling that while both styles of teams can win, the Organics have a better chance at building a dynasty than the Manufactured do?
naturalbornanalysts 9:44 pm on September 3, 2012 Permalink
Its always difficult to argue these past vs present points, but I think the Heat are indeed better than that 82-83 76ers team, and better than the Spurs, however I think I was wrong with the Celtics being below the Spurs, but that was based more on the notion of the Spurs having won multiple titles and WCF within that window.
Example 1: 11-12 Heat vs. 82-83 76ers
Dr. J could athletically matchup with LBJ – I think that LBJ would dominate Dr J… the athletic ability would possibly balance out, but the power and defensive ability of Lebron would show out, and the outside shooting of LBJ is better the Julius.
Moses was a beast and would kill Bosh- Agreed.
No idea on how good defensively Cheeks was, but he is 5th all time in steals, so you’d think he could check Wade- Possibly, but you could argue that the top two guys in that category (Stockton and Kidd) wouldn’t be able to check Wade. Mo was 6’1″ compared to Wades 6’4″ and while some the stats would balance out more due to Mo coming into his prime compared with Wade on the decline, I still think Wade would have the edge over a young Mo.
Example 2: 11-12 Heat vs. 07-08 Celtics
KG kills Bosh, especially in that first year with the C’s he was on a mission- Agreed…Bosh coming off an injury is no match for the 07-08 KG
Pierce on LBJ, though the 11-12 version of LBJ would win out… undoubtedly the 11-12 LBJ version wins out.
Ray on Wade, bit of a wash… yeah it is… hard to compare these two… kind of cancel each other out on what they give each team..
Perk plus a not quite there Rondo for the C’s as well – vs a balling Chalmers (have to admit he had a pretty nice finals) and a suddenly hot Battier.
Think the C’s would get this one though.
we might be having this debate again with the 11-12 vs12-13 Heat with the additions of Ray and Lewis…urgh
So Organic seems to win out most of the time… seems to set up for better dynasties… possibly because there is a more natural heirachy that forms, which was evident in Miami, with the Wade and LBJ ‘you shoot… no you shoot’ year before they realised its LBJ’s team and everyone else should enjoy the ride.